social.outsourcedmath.com
After my last long post, I got into some frustrating conversations, among them one in which an open-source guy repeatedly scoffed at the idea oferinkissane.com
A lot of folks are pretty traumatised by The Algorithms(TM), thanks to their time on the DataFarms. So there's a strong aversion to them in a large chunk of the fediverse community. But 'chrological order, from most recent' is an algorithm.Codeberg.org
It’s kind of a rite of passage for any new social media network. They show up, insist that they’re the “platform for free speech” without quite understanding what that actua…Techdirt
@strypey @jens @charlesroper in my experience, this preference usually boils down to "I like Reddit-style zillion headed hydra threaded discussions" .. we have limited forms of this in Discourse (and real-time chat lanes, too) see https://blog.codinghorror.com/discussions-flat-or-threaded/ and https://blog.codinghorror.com/web-discussions-flat-by-design/Web Discussions: Flat by Design
It's been six years since I wrote Discussions: Flat or Threaded? and, despite a bunch of evolution on the web since then, my opinion on this has not fundamentally changed.Jeff Atwood (Coding Horror)
Friendica software. To learn how to make your own, go look at https://friendi.ca
I wrote this up for fedi people who are actively curious and interested in other people, and I'm not going to worry too much about how it lands for those who aren't.
- people feel stressed and anxious when they get yelled at for breaking rules and norms they didn't know about
- it's hard to find people and conversations, and specifically hard to follow people across instances
- people want better organic and algorithmic ways to connect with each other
- instance-picking stresses people out, and a lot of the sign-up and settling-in processes are confusing and/or too much work for unknown returns
Please be cool with each other and don't make me come back to screaming fights in my replies. ❤
In case I forget (I always forget):
"building cultural norms into the tooling is much more effective and less alienating than chiding"
One of the best encapsulations of this idea, born of the challenges of managing the StackOverflow community norms (which tend towards scolding like lava) and Discourse (which aims to be the opposite), is Jeff Atwood's "Just In Time" Theory of User Behaviour:
https://blog.codinghorror.com/the-just-in-time-theory/
I return to this a lot - it's useful.
> Jeff Atwood's "Just In Time" Theory of User Behaviour
Anything @codinghorror writes about UX is worth reading. I'm constantly impressed by how much better the UX of Discourse is than almost anything else on the web. Even his hesitation to embrace federating Discourse instances over AP was motivated by legitimate concerns about breaking its UX. Much as it frustrated me, it also obliged me to make a clear case for the UX benefits of federation, which was well worth it.
@kissane
That's not really meant to start a discussion, just to state that there are different people, and good UX for one group isn't universally good UX. We humans seem to find it difficult to comprehend that, generally speaking.
@charlesroper @codinghorror @kissane
Is this about Discourse in particular, or is the web forum just not a medium that works for you? Is there other web forum software that you would say has better UX?
@charlesroper @codinghorror
Fair point. But even this is within the scope of UX design, in the sense of making UI highly configurable, with sane defaults, and plenty of Just In Time cues about how to vary them to work better for your needs.
@charlesroper @codinghorror
(Discovery of hidden/advanced features is another hot topic.)
@charlesroper @codinghorror @kissane
I don't think that quite captures the argument. I specified sane defaults, because a UI that comes as a bag of lego bricks, which you have to learn how to assemble before the app is any use, *is* bad UX. But that's not the same thing as shipping the lego bricks assembled, but avoiding gluing them together. So the person using it can vary the assembly as needed.
@charlesroper @codinghorror
The arguments often draw parallels to tools. Yes, Swiss army knives exist - but as *knives* they're kind of rubbish, as like any other of the tools they provide. So make knives instead.
Agree or disagree, all I'm saying is that these opinions exist and have reasoned arguments.
@charlesroper @codinghorror @kissane
It sounds like you're referencing the UNIX principle. Which is more of an engineering principle than a UX principle, although I can imagine some people arguing for more apps that do fewer things. Either way, how many functions an app has is a separate issue from whether the UI can be modified during use.
@charlesroper @codinghorror
Web Discussions: Flat by Design
Jeff Atwood (Coding Horror)I'm on a bunch of discourse forums, though, and they're all the same from this perspective.
Reddit is a different hell.
@strypey @charlesroper @kissane
> It's like I cannot build a mental map of the topics here. I'm not sure why that is, though
Intriguing, I can't do that either with Discourse, but I don't find that's something I need. you might enjoy Loomio more that Discourse or Reddit.
@codinghorror @charlesroper @kissane
Knives are actually a very powerful example of this. There are so many different types because each type is specialized for one job. There exist hybrid types for hybrid jobs, but by and large each is good for one job.
Nobody is shipping a blade you can trim to size, and if the handle isn't firmly attached... lawsuit.
@charlesroper @codinghorror @kissane
@charlesroper @codinghorror
I prefer to clear that up, is all.
The only thing I disagree with is the notion that UX applies universally to everyone 🤷♂️
@charlesroper @codinghorror @kissane
Indeed. I think that's what's happening here with UX. I don't think it means what you think it means.
> The only thing I disagree with is the notion that UX applies universally to everyone
Spoken like a true engineer ; )
https://piped.video/watch?v=3m5qxZm_JqM
@charlesroper @codinghorror
Piped
piped.videoJust a friendly nudge chaps that it might be best to take your debate to a separate thread so this one doesn’t get overrun. It’s a fine discussion, but perhaps not contextually ideal in this thread. Thank you 🙏
Keep me copied on if you like. I’m listening. Just conscious of Erin’s notification mountain when she’s back. 😀
> Just conscious of Erin’s notification mountain when she’s back
Thanks for the reminder. I've gone back and pruned Erin's @handle off most of the posts in the thread. Would you be willing to do this too @jens? If she's interested, she can still follow the whole thread from the initial jumping off point.
> it might be best to take your debate to a separate thread
Debate over, at this point it's just banter 😄
Instead of saying that I don't understand UX, why don't you give me your definition instead?
> Could you give me the TL;DR?
It's just a bit of comedy. Don't worry about it.
> why don't you give me your definition instead?
It's exactly what is says on the tin; everything and anything that affects the User eXperience of using software. Although inspired by @aral, it recently occurred to me that HX (Human eXperience) is a better term.
(1/2)
@charlesroper @codinghorror
When you say:
> Assuming UX is universal implies assuming all people have the same abilities and hindrances
... it seems to imply that UX/HX is a specific set of rules or standards. When it's just the ongoing process of exploring, explaining, and coming up with solutions to problems like;
> how *writing* alt text decreases accessibility for dyslexic folk
@aral @charlesroper @codinghorror
Can you see how I came to the conclusion that you're just determined to disagree with anything I say on the subject?
@charlesroper @codinghorror
I'm not sure what you're talking about.
@charlesroper @codinghorror
@charlesroper @codinghorror
I agree with that suggestion. I would further suggest that the next time we end up in the same discussion, you figure out the context before replying. Thanks!
@charlesroper @codinghorror
@charlesroper @codinghorror @kissane
I've run old PHPBB sites (and others) and engaged in many, many online forums (inc. Usenet and IRC) extensively since the 90s. I've also run an instance of Discourse. In terms of admin it far surpasses anything else I've personally had to manage. I mean MUCH easier. In terms of UX, I find it great - I always feel good when I find a Discourse forum. The users on the forum I operated were happy with it too - not a single complaint. So ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
> I always feel good when I find a Discourse forum
Me too. There's no accounting for taste, I guess 😀
@ocramius @jens @codinghorror
I didn't know that federating Discourse instances over AP was envisaged, but it's interesting, are there some articles about that?
@charlesroper @codinghorror @kissane
> I didn't know that federating Discourse instances over AP was envisaged
There's some details here:
https://meta.discourse.org/t/activitypub-plugin/266794
@charlesroper @codinghorror @kissane
> I would actually cite Discourse as one of the worst forums I've used
You're not alone, see some of the follow-up comments. No amounting for taste, I guess.
I set up an alt-account to indulge in therapeutic socialising around the (big) football (soccer) team I follow.
The experience has been excruciatingly difficult in many ways. It's been a job. I'm two week into relentless *work* to drum up even a little consistent sociability. It's been almost zero fun. If I were normal, I'd have given up on day two.
Two idea I think would make it easier (cont)...
(cont)...
Perhaps the biggest difficulty I've found on my alt-account is that even though I've been through the pain of finding and following around 200 people who have used a relevant tag, my timeline is frustratingly irrelevant to the point of being chaotic. (cont)...
So yeah, it's very difficult.
I'd also say it's all very time bound. Posting stuff while America sleeps means you're posting into the void, because those posts aren't surfaced by an algo in the morning. A tactic I've often used there is to boost my own posts to give them a second wind.
I was never on Twitter but, so using Hashtags as keywords to search and follow appears totally natural to me
Unfortunately there are all the limiting, muting, defederating things going on so searching for a hashtag often just can not found them when on other instances
So i feel very much here in a bubble that limits my diversity, not in a self choosen bubble, but between walls that others have set up around their bubbles
> Unfortunately there are all the limiting, muting, defederating things going on so searching for a hashtag often just can not found them when on other instances
That's not usually the reason. Hashtags searches only cover posts from accounts your server knows about, because someone using your servers follows them.
> i feel very much here in a bubble that limits my diversity
I sympathize. Mastodon's design choices about search do create that outcome.
@charlesroper @kissane
> Unfortunately there are all the limiting, muting, defederating things going on so searching for a hashtag often just can not found them when on other instances
That's not usually the reason. Hashtags searches only cover posts from accounts your server knows about, because someone using your servers follows them.
> i feel very much here in a bubble that limits my diversity
I sympathize. Mastodon's design choices about search do create that outcome.
@charlesroper @kissane
> That's not usually the reason. Hashtags searches only cover posts from accounts your server knows about, because someone using your servers follows them.
I think it follows an (inverted) "bathtub curve"
In the beginning there is very little found, until federation grows
But after some years there is a decline when you see less things from the same hashtag
At least this can happen when you are on a niche server with topics that other servers might disagree
> In the beginning there is very little found, until federation grows
Basically. When a new server first goes online, the only posts it knows about are the ones made by its own accounts. Then, when they start following accounts on other servers, it learns about their posts. At least on Mastodon. Other software might import all posts from every server it knows about, but that's a *lot* of stuff for it to download and store.
@charlesroper @kissane
> after some years there is a decline when you see less things from the same hashtag
That happens because of servers going down, or people deleting old posts. A lot of people use an auto-delete that wipes out all their old posts after X days, unless they're pinned.
@charlesroper @kissane
I don't bother with following people at all. If I'm interested in a topic, I follow the hashtags about that topic, and it doesn't matter to me who's posting to it. If I'm interested in everything a particular person has to say on any topic (aka actual friends), then I follow them.
> If I'm interested in a topic, I follow the hashtags about that topic
One limitation of this is that following a hashtag doesn't give you every post in the verse that includes that hashtag. Only the ones your server knows about, which are the ones from accounts someone on your server is following.
@charlesroper @staidwinnow @paninid @naught101 @stephengentle @kissane
You think you get them all on Twitter? Absolutely not. You follow hashtags as a continuous search that's fine. Lists also work. If you want to widen the results then follow someone from as many instances as you can.
I haven't done the latter because the total volume I get is sufficient at the moment. But I could.
But I am just one brain so I'm going to miss a lot of things, apologies.
Anyone who thinks you can't be silly in the verse, or that you can't do it in English, hasn't discovered @onan or @buttplugio 😆
@derwinmcgeary @mawhrin @BernardSheppard @gelato_al_pollo @tip @kissane
I get a *lot* of complaints in my notifications and I respond by blocking. Keeps both sides happy, but this is the only system it happens on.
> Sure, I'm silly... I get a *lot* of complaints in my notifications
Just in case it wasn't clear, silly in the context is a compliment. Stumbling across your account gave me some of the best belly laughs I've found in the verse!
Same with @onan (Praise Bob!)
@cjordahl @derwinmcgeary @mawhrin @BernardSheppard @gelato_al_pollo @tip @kissane
I'm really sorry to hear that : (
> I get a *lot* of complaints in my notifications
Why don't these entitled bullies just mute you and move on? Oh right, they're bullies.
> this is the only system it happens on
I wonder what is about the verse that's attracted the Community Patrol types?
@onan @cjordahl @derwinmcgeary @mawhrin @BernardSheppard @gelato_al_pollo @tip @kissane
The best part is when they're people that FOLLOW ME. It's just like "Did I not make the name obvious enough? Did you not get what was happening when you clicked follow on the account with the word buttplug in it *twice*?"
But anyways, thanks! I have no plans on like, dropping masto or anything, and I do like most of my interactions here. Just more tiring than other places sometimes.
>bDid you not get what was happening when you clicked follow on the account with the word buttplug in it *twice*?"
I think this sums it up nicely:
https://piped.video/watch?v=HQtNzXzDPX0
(Side Note: anyone know how I embed video memes like that in my posts, such that people can watch them from inside their fediverse apps?)
@onan @cjordahl @derwinmcgeary @mawhrin @BernardSheppard @gelato_al_pollo @tip @kissane
Search. It seems bad actors migrate to common instances and since I can block an entire instance it seems controllable at this stage. The mods on my instances do a good job. I would really like search.
Content warnings. I got my very first dick pic ever on Mastodon. I can't explain the levels of violation and disgust I felt. That's extreme but maybe frogs scare me too. I wish we could put a content warning on already published items on my own timeline and not have to mute or scroll fast.
As a user I would like to setup a filter that placed keywords behind a content warning. Including using programming or AI to assign a basic description such as food or reptile. Or have some check boxes to easily select when posting. I know this won't help with text readers.
I'm only trying Bluesky because someone gave me an invite code. That person also tried Mastodon, but they couldn't stand the HOA vibe/etiquette policing.
It's nice to have a place not named Twitter that (hopefully) won't be shutdown over some admin or moderation drama [mastodon.lol], or be the target of a defederation campaign [mastodon.social].
I'm damn tired of moving instances over bullshit.
> It's nice to have a place not named Twitter
Well, Twitter isn't named Twitter anymore, so... ; )
@kissane
Regarding the issue of what is described as the difficulty of finding people on Mastodon: I'm struck by the fact I'm not certain what people are talking about when they invoke that, because off the top of my head I can think of three [edit: make that four] [edit: no wait make that five] *extremely* different things they might be alluding to:
1) "How do I find the Mastodon presence of somebody I know from some other context?" For instance, a friend or colleague or fan of yours might find themselves thinking, "I hear Erin is on Mastodon somewhere; how can I find her in follow her there?" They may be coming to the Fediverse with the Twitter-conditioned assumption that they should be able to type your name into the search box, and have it turn up your Mastodon identity. If I understand federation right, that works fine on bigger instances, & terribly on smaller ones.
1/?
> A feature like Slack's of option to suppressing link previews, and a norm of using it, could help
I don't use any of the "official" Mastodon apps, but in the all the apps I use with my Mastodon account, link previews are optional. I'm not convinced they're even a good feature, since they can totally slashdot a webserver is a post containing a link to a page hosted there goes viral here.
@kissane
You can turn off *viewing* link previews. For lots of visual content they are a plus, though (data charts, maps, nature, history).
I am talking about an option to suppress link previews when including a link in your own post, so that even if someone usually views link previews, they don't get a preview from that specific link.
Take a look. A lot of important news stories use aggressive images that are not informative. If you have image previews off, you probably don't see.
> I am talking about an option to suppress link previews when including a link in your own post
Ah! OK. That would be handy. Loomio has this, and I believe Discourse does to. It would certainly be possible to implement it in fediverse UI. Have you checked the forum to see if anyone's requested it as a feature for Mastodon? If not, that would be a good place to start on getting it to happen:
https://github.com/mastodon/mastodon/discussions
@kissane
mastodon/mastodon · Discussions
GitHub